Hello everyone,
It has been a long and tiring week, and I come with a little bad news. It seems Innoxia's page for Lilith's Throne has been put 'under review' by Patreon.
While there are a lot of differences between Lilith's Throne and Accidental Woman, I still find its removal concerning. I also find it interesting that it's being removed for certain elements of gameplay that is essentially identical to games like TiTS. (Update: The shared gameplay elements I'm talking about are obviously the gratuitous noncon/rape, as TiTS removed its relatively minor incest content several weeks ago.) and I wonder if the larger games will be spared because of their high pledge value, or if they too will eventually be removed.
Not too long ago I promised that I would investigate some options for alternative funding methods in case the worst happens, and share that information with my fellow creators and followers. I don't want Accidental Woman as a project/ideal to die because of deplatforming. I've been really inspired by some of the creators out there working on interesting projects that have expanded the genre. I remember when adult games were basically limited to Japanese eroge/nukage and simple flash click games. Part of what I've wanted with Accidental Woman, as I've said many times before, is to help inspire other creators and demonstrate that the genre can keep growing to be more than it was before.
To be clear, while some people may not care for Patreon's shifting policy and somewhat loose interpretation of that policy, it's still their right to have whatever policy they want. I'm not angry at them, and I am thankful that they allowed the adult games community to come to life in a time when creating adult games was essentially limited to being a hobby.
An Aside: Why don't payment processors like PayPal and Stripe like porn?
While it's easy to attribute this to some sort of moral or political stance, it's more about money. The online porn industry has some of the highest rates of fraud around, with fraud on both the buyer and seller side. There are scuzzy misleading or downright fraudulent websites, as well as sites that essentially operate as a front to charge stolen CC accounts. On the other side, there are people who contest porn charges for less than honest reasons. Payment processors don't want to bother with any of that.
Let's Get It On Already
And by "On", I'm of course talking about my look at other funding platforms. Of course.
For each platform, listed below, I'm going to give a brief look at the positives and negatives and cover some of the basic information about the platform such as cost, flexibility, content restrictions, and other topics as relevant. I'm no funding platform expert, and I obviously haven't been able to USE most of these, so most of the information is based on basic research and information put out by the companies themselves. Still, I hope it will be useful for some of you out there!
One important note: There are several membership platforms that aren't listed here, including some popular ones like GumRoad. This is because the platform either:
- Doesn't allow adult content (or is excessively restrictive in content that is allowed). This includes GumRoad, BuyMeACoffee and many more.
- Has an operational model that isn't very compatible with adult game development.
- I haven't heard about it somehow... Let me know and I'll update my list, but relatively unknown platforms should be approached with caution.
Cost: 5% of subscriptions + 3.5 to 5% in transaction fees.
Adult Allowed: Yes, though support and content are growing increasingly restricted.
Services: provides a limited blog on Patreon.com, provides some member management and analytics tools to creators, allows tiered subscriptions and content gating by tier.
Pros:
- Patreon has a large user base, and it is easy for existing users to start pledging to a new creator (good for visitor conversion).
- Patreon doesn't charge a monthly fee to creators, so projects just starting out don't have to cover any fees out of limited subscriptions.
- Discord integration, and integration with certain social media platforms
Cons:
- Limited customization of creator's page, and simplistic tools for blog entries and posting content.
- Frequent technical issues on the platform. Limited support
- Increasingly strict and unpredictable content rules, with an overall push away from adult content altogether.
- High cost, particularly for creators who make more than a few hundred per month.
- Creators hidden from searches on the platform, even direct searches for the creator.
Patreon is basically the current king of monthly subscription-based crowdfunding. Because of the large number of users, and people's familiarity with the brand, it is likely easier to get a person visiting your page on Patreon to subscribe. This is, of course, a bit of a supposition, as until recently basically all the major adult games have been on Patreon. This means that there isn't a lot to compare to... and when you're dealing with something as important as your game project, people tend not to want to just leave and see what happens.
Cost: Your time and sanity, but otherwise none.
Adult: Yep, though not via the popular third-party transaction processors like PayPal
Services: None whatsoever. You'll need to build any 'services' yourself.
Pros:
- Nobody to tell you what kind of content you can or can't create, as long as it isn't illegal, you can do it.
- You keep most of the money from your supporters, and some transaction processors like CCBill offer subscriptions and such as well.
- You have control over everything.
Cons:
- You have control over everything... basically, you have to DO everything.
- The term "user-friendly" shouldn't be uttered in the same conversation as any discussion about this option.
- This requires a lot more work on your part, and if you don't have a website already, you'll need one.
This option could work for certain creators out there, but honestly, it's probably too much work for a dedicated developer. Not only does it require more work, but you'll also have to learn. It also caries about no benefits in terms of an existing user base or services offered from an actual platform. It IS possible, but it also seems like the toughest choice.
Cost: Unknown, possibly something like 5%, maybe.
Adult: While not strictly official just yet, probably not...
Services: Available when the platform actually launches.
Pros:
- The platform is associated with Kickstarter, which also has a large community of users, most like exceeding that of Patreon.
- Likely a good platform from a technical perspective, but only time will tell.
Cons:
- Hasn't actually officially launched yet, still a very exclusive beta for certain creators.
- Likely will have hardcore censorship, and probably won't allow adult content at all.
This platform is really here only for completeness. It's basically expected to be worthless thanks to the expectation of strict content restrictions... It could turn out differently though, which would definitely be interesting.
Cost: Like Patreon, but add an extra 5%
Adult: Yesish. I didn't investigate thoroughly because of a) cost, and b) Patreon
Services: Similar to Patreon, but actually use your own branded page/website. Also adds some newsletter functionality.
Pros:
- I am unaware of any real pros to this service that aren't also offered by Patreon.
Cons:
- Expensive. Very very expensive.
- They want to put Memberful branding all over everything anyway.
- Owned by Patreon, with a similar expectation for quality of service and technical support.
Just no. I'm not actually sure how this is a viable platform at all, let alone for adult game development. Still, it's a possibility.
Cost: Just the transaction fees.
Adult: France
Services: Basic subscription donation platform. No content distribution or anything like that.
Pros:
- This is a true donation platform, where people donate money to help keep you working. This is great for non-commercial projects.
- Incredibly cheap, as it's essentially a non-profit operation.
- Donations/gifts are a lot nicer on your taxes.
- Started in France.
Cons:
- No commercialization allowed, you cant use the platform to unlock content or anything like that.
- Basically incompatible with most adult game development projects (but could be great for some).
- Started in France.
This is a pretty cool platform, and it's really about actual patronage and supporting creators you care about. Better yet, as a donator, you can use all your donations as tax write-offs in many countries. Still, the strict limits in place because of the donation aspect also make this unsuitable for a lot of projects. Definitely a case of "awesome if it fits, pointless otherwise."
UPDATE: According to Hentai Writer, Podia does, in fact, restrict adult content. I spoke to a representative and they didn't mention anything about it being forbidden, but I'm guessing there are some restrictions hidden somewhere, with some selective enforcement... so probably best to avoid.
Cost: Flat monthly/yearly fee - $79/month or $800/year (and no transaction fees)
Adult: Whatever you want, as long as it isn't illegal.
Services: Storefront/web hosting, website integration, free platform migration service (to migrate from places like Patreon), blogging/analytics/etc. Offers more flexible subscriptions as well as the ability to sell digital downloads and merchandise directly. Multi-subscription support, for splitting up projects. Integration into your webpage, etc. etc. etc. (Basically the most I've seen out of all the platforms I investigated.)
Pros:
- Competent platform run by people with experience in the field.
- A platform dedicated to creators, funded by flat fee so there isn't bias.
- Very inexpensive for creators that bring in $2,000 or more per month.
- Competent content hosting, and distribution for direct sales.
- Greater flexibility in subscription and sales options.
- A lot of support options, and free migration support.
Cons:
- Expensive for smaller creators, if you make less than $1,000 per month the fees are more than patreon (though you get a lot more for it).
- Not as simple as slapping a few paragraphs and a couple pictures onto a platform creator page.
- Not a "community" type option in the same way as other platforms, it's essentially your own professional brand, which means that you won't be getting a lot of traffic via recommendations or platform searches. I'm not entirely sure how big of a deal this is... Patreon only does part of this for adult creators.
- Lack of the "already supporting stuff on here" subscriber conversion.
Update: According to Hentai Writer, the adult video creator section also supports membership/subscription for games in addition to videos, I'll need to check out the details.
Cost:
Adult: You serious?
Services: All the porn, 55gallon barrels of lube, find hot singles in your area.
Pros:
Cons:
UPDATE: For adult projects, the cost is 5% plus transaction fees, not 3%
Cost: 5% + transaction fees
Adult: Yes, content must be legal (of course).
Services: Basically what Patreon does, except a little better technically, and without the douchiness.
Pros:
Adult: Yes, content must be legal (of course).
Services: Basically what Patreon does, except a little better technically, and without the douchiness.
Pros:
- A friendlier more down-to-earth company that is still about supporting creators... kind of like how Patreon used to be years ago.
- Similar sort of subscriber atmosphere as Patreon, which would encourage community conversion.
Lower prices than Patreon, possibly significantly so depending on whether transaction fees are inflated and if so, to what level.- Doesn't seem to be against sex or other things that responsible adults do. In fact, created its own adult subpage specifically for adult content creators.
- Seems to be growing fairly quickly as an alternative to Patreon.
Cons:
Not fully set up yet for adult content.Update - now has a special /adult page for adult creators!- Experienced some early technical issues, as well as some attacks by some kind of social justice warrior group... not really sure of the details on that, it seems to be resolved now.
This option looks pretty good, though it's still fairly early, as the site hasn't been around for a very long time. Incidentally, this seems to be the likely location for Innoxia's Lilith's Throne. I personally will be watching closely there, to see how those things go. SubscribeStar has a lot of promise, but it's also still pretty early.
Whew... That's all for now. Let me know if you know of another platform you'd like added to the list!
Take care, and stay pervy my friends.
ThaumX
Regarding SubscribeStar, what happened is a lot of people who left Patreon on principle went there and a bunch of SJWs raised a big stink about it. SubscribeStar didn't really do anything other than allow these people to join, but Paypal (and later Stripe) cut service to them anyway*.
ReplyDeleteThat situation hasn't really been *resolved* as such - Paypal and Stripe still don't provide service to them, they've just found other more niche payment processors that are willing to work with them. As a consequence you need a credit card to pledge on SubscribeStar, which is probably a turn-off for people (though prepaid credit cards do work).
While I think they've mostly recovered now, they're still in the process of approving payments for new creators. Aftermath Team set up a page as an alternative a couple of months ago, and they're *still* waiting to be approved. Maybe that has to do with what you said about them working on adding support for adult content.
* If you think that sounds like illegal collusion between Patreon and Paypal/Stripe to shut out a competitor, you'd be right! A group of people headed up by lawyer Lior Leser is currently working on submitting a complaint to the FTC.
Good to know, thanks for the info Ver Greeneyes! I'm curious about the credit card requirement... I know Paypal would work with a bank account/wire transfers, but stripe (at least used to be) just your typical CC processor. I know many countries don't use credit and debit cards so much for purchases in brick-and-mortar stores, like Germany. But even so, over a decade ago having a debit/bank card and using ATMs there still seemed pretty common. I'm probably a little ignorant here, so maybe there's something I'm missing, but I thought the major group of people that don't have access to banking services are those that are underage. Certainly it's less convenient if you're used to using PayPal or another service to pay for things though.
DeleteI can only speak for the Netherlands, but paying with a credit card isn't that common here - we use debit cards and our own digital payment system called iDEAL. Paypal is nice because you can just hook it up to your bank account and it will deduct the payment automatically (no Paypal balance required). I actually recently got a credit card from my bank - it requires that you earn at least €650 per month, and there's a yearly cost (about 20 bucks).
DeleteI think there's probably also a psychological difference between signing into your Paypal account with your strong password, and just entering your credit card details with that 3-digit security code. The latter feels kind of archaic, but maybe that's just me.
Okay, where on earth do you find all of those gifs that you use? Especially for this post?
ReplyDeleteWhat Patreon is doing sounds really concerning and it really sucks.
Just the internet. Google Images, usually. If I find an image/gif that looks interesting like it'd be good for something, I'll often save it until I come up with a use for it. :D This particular gif is from a short film called Wadzilla, a horror-comedy that was part of an anthology film of 4 short films called something like "Chillerz". Apparently that little sperm monster gets big enough to start molesting the statue of liberty, lol.
Deleteah, thank you! I wanted to see it because that gif is such a tease!
DeleteOne of the major problems I have with SubscribeStar so far is it doesn't allow you to "follow" creators. This is a problem because: creators can't make "public" posts, following a creator allows people to keep track of them and subscribe down the line if they wish, puts a monetary block on recommendations by other creators and many more reasons.
ReplyDeleteThat's interesting, and also something I didn't realize. I'm guessing that subscribestar is more oriented towards you-tubers and bloggers, which typically have their own public platform already... so another one is just a duplication of effort. It certainly is handy to be able to follow a creator though, as I use that feature to check back in on some other people on Patreon when deciding who to pledge to. Maybe if developers started regularly keeping an online presence beyond just the platform page, it might help a little. I guess it's one of those "wait and see" things.
DeletePatreon doesn't allow you to do this either, right? I mean, the only way to get e-mailed about public posts that a creator makes is to pledge to them. Otherwise you have to visit the page.
DeleteI'm not sure what the additional limitations are for SubscribeStar. Maybe the only "public post" you can have is the pinned post on your front page, and replies to it - this is what Aftermath Team seem to be doing so far.
Well, I stand corrected! I've certainly never seen that "Follow" button before. I guess they don't exactly advertise it, but is it a recent addition?
DeleteIt's been there for well over two or so years AFAIK.
DeleteHaha, I guess I'm just blind. Probably gave Patreon some extra cash just to follow some pages. Oh well, most of it went to good causes.
DeleteAs far as I can tell the biggest issue Patreon has is parental/child incest (due to power dynamics I would imagine) and "non-consensual" encounters. Fenoxo and co. just removed all the parental/child incest content from TiTS, as well as sibling content, though I believe Patreon might be a bit more leniant on that. That's why TiTS is "untouched" since Fenoxo removed/changed the offending content.
ReplyDeleteWhile it's disappointing, his reason made sense to me. He has more creators than just himself that are supported by the page, and it'd be unfair to them if he just killed it for a small part of the game, since it is just a small bit in TiTS. In LT it's much more a part of the game, so sticking to one's guns makes sense.
Hope it goes well. Good to see you're still doing fine.
Some factual inaccuracies with the article (and no, I'm not on Patreon's staff or whatever, this is all factual stuff);
ReplyDelete- Patreon takes less than any other site out there right now besides Itch.io; most sites start at 20%-30% of your income or higher. That's why prior to Patreon you almost never saw western adult games because the price cut was too high.
- Subscribestar takes the same as Patreon, 5% + transaction fees, it's on their front page.
- Subscribestar also doesn't pay VAT taxes from what I could see, which is illegal if anyone pledges to you from the EU (Patreon and Itch.io and most other sites do this).
- Podia's terms of service state they do not allow any depictions of nudity or sexual activity whatsoever, so they don't allow any adult content.
- CCBill will mean going through Visa/Mastercard directly which will mean you'll be hit with the "risky business" tax for adult websites, which will tax you quite high per transaction, far more than any other site listed here.
- Pornhub does have a membership program where you get paid per view on your videos. It's open to anyone who wants to register on it. They allow and count hentai games/animations within this membership program.
- Subscribestar also has a fair delay on payouts (up to 14 days or longer in some cases), as well as noting in their ToS they might remove your content at any time if it is deemed pornographic or obscene.
- Patreon is actually pushing towards NSFW content, having hosted multiple NSFW-creator-only meetups IRL, having a forum specifically just for NSFW creators to voice concerns to staff directly, having NSFW livestreams where NSFW creators talk to staff and get feedback on new NSFW features, and having staff specifically dedicated to NSFW creators too. There's also a Patreon Discord, and 50% of the channels are specifically for NSFW creators; it's an official one, staff is in there, too, talking in the NSFW channels.
> Subscribestar also doesn't pay VAT taxes from what I could see, which is illegal if anyone pledges to you from the EU (Patreon and Itch.io and most other sites do this).
DeleteThey actually started charging VAT this month, see https://www.subscribestar.com/posts/10165 (not sure how they're dealing with the lack thereof in previous months - for their sake I hope they get it straightened out)
Oh, for the Podia thing, that's over at https://www.podia.com/terms and if you ctrl+F "obscene" you can see the portion with it.
ReplyDeleteFor the Pornhub membership stuff, that's over at https://www.pornhub.com/partners/mpp and while it seems initially like it's only for real life models, if you check https://twitter.com/Pornhub/status/1070001195375362048 it shows them talking about doing stuff with art/games in response to a question; I've emailed them and gotten clarification that they do indeed let you do this for adult games/animations.
The way it works is you'd have to upload a video of yourself to their servers (privately, only PornHub staff would see it) working on your animations/games showing clearly that you're the one creating them, and then similar to YouTube's copyright system, you could set it that anyone doing videos of your game would have their videos monetized towards you (AFAIK) or you can make it only for your own uploaded content and let other uploaders of your game keep their ad revenue and such.